Hi,
I need a clarification of who ''those'' returning to earth with Jesus in Rev 19. I have received info from another ministry that the saints in heaven, ''the church'', are not of the number that return with Christ @ His Second coming. That they will remain in heaven with their glorified bodies received at the rapture. This raises a few questions & comments:
1) They were left behind
2) they will be separated from Christ during His Millennial Reign on Earth.
3) My understanding of the Millennial Reign with Christ is that we would be ruling over the nations on earth.
Thank you
Walt
Hi Walt,
I've never heard someone say that the church remains in heaven at the 2nd Coming and doesn't return with Christ before. I'm not sure what they would even base that on. Be interesting to know how they came to that conclusion but it certainly isn't one I hold. So I'll base my answer on what you have said. There are obviously two questions here:
1. Who returns with Jesus and 2) Will believers be separated from Christ at some stage (like in His Messianic Kingdom) after the rapture? Let's start with the latter question.
Will believers be separated from Christ?
Let's look at two common passages surrounding the rapture and see what they teach about this:
Joh 14:1-3 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. (2) "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (3) "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
What stands out here in regards to our question? You will note that the purpose of Jesus' return for His Church, His bride, is so that He can receive His bride unto Himself. To state the obvious, He wants His bride to be with Him! He doesn't want to be separated from them and all of history is playing out for that day when He returns for them, so they can be together. If that was the only verse we had then I would argue against any born again believer ever being separated from Christ after His return. But there is even clearer language in the main rapture passage:
1Th 4:15-17 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
One aspect of this well known passage that isn't focused on as much, and should be, is the very last phrase... 'and so we shall always be with the Lord.' Or as the NIV states: 'And so we will be with the Lord forever.' So who is the 'we' in this verse? It is those that Paul is speaking of, those that participate in the rapture. That is, the entire body of Christ, from the weakest to the greatest saint. It includes both the 'dead in Christ' and also those alive at His return. So what does it say about these ones? 'So we shall ALWAYS be with the Lord'. Always means always and forever means forever. It certainly doesn't mean just for a little while before the Lord leaves His bride and goes off to reign on the Earth alone!
Who returns with Christ at the second coming?
There are certain verses that speak of 'others' coming with the Lord at His return:
Zec 14:5 ...Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
Jud 1:14-15 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones (15) to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
So 'holy ones' come with the Lord. Thousands upon thousands in fact. So who are they? We do know that angels return with Jesus for the Lord said:
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
So it is clear that angels surround the Lord in this, His majestic and awesome coming! But is there anyone else with them? Look at what Revelation19 says:
Rev 19:11,14 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. (14) The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
Those described in Revelation 19:14 are said to be dressed in 'fine linen, white and clean.' Angels are never said to be dressed in 'fine linen'. And we know who is because John has just mentioned them earlier in the same chapter:
Rev 19:7-8 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. (8) Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)
You will note that it is the bride of Christ that is given fine linen, bright and clean to wear. And note also that fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints. That is why you don't see angels described as wearing fine linen. So Revelation 19:14 clearly describes the bride of Christ following the Lord Jesus at His second coming. The bride, His Church, is not left behind in Heaven at His return like some other ministry said.
You were also correct that there are many promises given to the Church to rule and reign with Christ during His earthly kingdom during the Millennium. Such as:
- Daniel 7:27 “Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.”
- Matthew 19:28 “So Jesus said to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’”
- 1 Corinthians 6:2–3 “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? … Do you not know that we shall judge angels?”
- 2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.”
- Revelation 2:26–27 “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; they shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—as I also have received from My Father.”
- Revelation 5:10 “And have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth.”
- Revelation 20:4–6 “…And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years…"
It is good that you wanted to test what you heard. And to conclude, scripture is clear on this: Believers will always be with the Lord after the rapture. No separation! And they will return with Him, and also rule and reign with Him during His Messianic Kingdom on earth.
Hope this helps,
Iain.
The Readers Reply
“Who returns with Christ at His Second Coming?”
“And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white, horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (Rev. 19:14).
Armies mounted on white horses will return with Christ. These “armies which were in heaven” are “clothed in fine linen, white and clean,” and are thus, by their apparel, associated with the saints who are the Lamb’s wife (cf. 19:8). Revelation 17:14 further states that, when Christ returns, at the Battle of Armageddon, “These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.” Saints of the prophetic program and Tribulation martyrs return with Christ to reign on the earth (Zech.14:5; Jude 1:14). All of these come with Christ from heaven at His Second Coming to partake in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6), which is their hope.
Scripture makes clear that angels also return with Christ (Matt.25:31; 2 Thes. 1:7). However, members of the Church, the Body of Christ, are not of the number that return with Christ at His Second Coming. We will remain in heaven in the glorified bodies that we will have received at the Rapture (1 Cor. 15:51-54 cf. Eph. 2:6).
Thank you so very much taking the time to answer my question. I look forward to your response.
Walter
Hi Walt,
Thanks for the extra background info. It helps. Good to see that we used nearly all the same verses... though with a slightly different result!
There are a couple of things that I don't agree with in their analysis. They agree and state that the armies that follow Jesus out of heaven is the same bride mentioned in Rev 19:8 - which I agree with. But then they state these are 'saints of the prophetic program and tribulation martyrs'. And they don't think that these are members of the Church, the body of Christ... which will remain in heaven.
Firstly, the Church is the bride of Christ (and soon to be wife of the Lamb). She has specific promises given to her concerning this (2 Cor 11:2, Eph 5:31-32). So it is normal, and more accurate imo, to see the Church (the bride of Christ) getting married in Rev 19:6-8, and then returning with Jesus in Rev 19:14.
Secondly, I was interested to see what verses they use to say that the Church remains in heaven when Jesus returns to earth... and it is only one. Here it is:
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus
Please note that this is NOT about the future at all and says nothing about what happens to the Church when Jesus returns to earth. It speaks to the spiritual reality, right now, for those 'in Christ'. It is not future tense, but past tense, speaking of our position in Him the moment we believed and were saved.
So again, it doesn't speak at all to what happens when Christ returns. But the many other verses for the Church, giving the promise to rule and reign with Jesus in His kingdom, certainly do. And the promise that the Church will always be with the Lord certainly applies as well. So I wouldn't agree or go along with this particular thought from this other ministry here. It doesn't have any real scriptural backing.
All the best,
Iain.