email subject - Once saved on earth only?
Hi,
I recently completed some research on the topic of ‘Once saved always saved’ and this is what I have concluded. If you could read it and let me know what you think it would be much appreciated.
I totally believe that all sin is forgiven, today, tomorrow and forever (whilst on earth)
1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from All unrighteousness.”
Thank God for Grace. Amen!
Paul does alert us in Romans 6 :1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound ? 2 God forbid or May it never be. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? This scripture informs me that it is very important to renew our mind to stop sin.
Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is like a King who calls people to a banquet. When the King sees there a man, He says (lovingly) ‘friend’ where is your wedding garment ? and the man was speechless. Then said the King to His servants bind him hand and foot and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called but few chosen. Mathew 22:12-14. Here, I understand the King represents God and the man has somehow made it into heaven; but is identified as false. What he lacks is ‘The wedding garment’ representing his connection to the work of salvation, his relationship with God and his brethren in Christ.
The scriptures are written for us to find the answers and not to hide the truth of God and His Word. Again Jesus says in Mathew 7:21-23 Not everyone that saith to me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me; ye that work iniquity.
Am I correct in understanding that these who approach the Lord would be those born again believers, who had the ability on earth to manifest power to cast out demons, but were Not doers of the Word (James 1:22)? As their relationship with the Lord was obscured in some way? This reminds me of Psalm 82:6-7 which says:
I have said, Ye are gods; And all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.
Rick Renner describes false brethren here:
Throughout the years I have lived and worked in the former Soviet Union, I’ve had numerous encounters with false brethren. When I say “false brethren,” I am not only referring to unbelievers who pretend to be believers, but also to real brothers who are “false” in the way they have projected themselves. They portrayed one image when, in fact, they had ulterior motives behind the mask they wore so professionally.
In the statement above Rick Renner discusses ‘real’ brethren who were false. The fact in Mathew 7:22 they say that they were able to cast out devils, highlights that they had authority to do so. Why does Jesus says to them ‘depart from me, you who work iniquity’? What is the iniquity that they worked? A doer of the Word, ‘works’ the Word by confession.
I understand that all who believe on earth are ‘able’ to manifest the ‘Power’ as the man who was casting out devils in Jesus name; and whom the disciples ’forbade’ as he walked not with them. This individual had mastered the ability to cast out demons. However, he did not walk with Jesus, there was no relationship. Although, Jesus did say in Mark 9:39-40. 39 Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.40 For he that is not against us, is on our part. I don’t believe self righteous people would speak evil of God. However, will of those they compare themselves against.
I believe scripture highlights such people as those who live a life without failure in their ‘own’ eyes. Not just church authority but high ranking officials in councils, governments and organisations who attend church, that are run by those described. Here, I’m reminded of Luke 16:19-31 This rich man had not renewed his mind, he is in hell and believes he ‘still’ calls the ‘shots’. Bypassing Lazarus (he always knew his name)and speaking directly to Father Abraham; and with instructions!
This evidences that at judgement, many will be shocked at what the Lord will say to them. I mean if Jesus says depart from Me; there is no where else to go but the ‘other’ place!
Revelations 21:7-8 says
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful (fear can cause people to trust in themselves not God) and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I realise that many brethren do not see themselves among those mentioned above. Instead they will quote 1 Corinthians 6:11-13 that says; they who were once the above but are now washed. However, in the past when I questioned who the scripture above is discussing? I was informed that this will be the lot of unbelievers only. Is this correct as the Bible is written to believers?
Conclusion: God will love you to the brink of hell. I heard Andrew Wommack once state that God loves us All so much, that He fights strenuously for each individual to have their choice; even when it means they/we do not want Him as God, or are not doers of the Word. Right up to Him casting people out into outer darkness, He honours man’s choice. The man in Mathew 22:12-14 was probably a born again believer and like the religious leaders of Jesus time and today, could put aside God and His Word, for their own words and understanding; and then still expect God to let them into heaven. They don’t accept that they must personally come to Him and commit!
Separated for All eternity .. no one should ever want that. Paul in Philippians 2:12 encouraged them:
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, ‘work out your ‘own’ salvation with fear and trembling’.
If we are encouraged that the Word of God is absolute and everything is truth, why do more people Not heed these instructions and previous parables that Jesus Himself spoke? My discovery is Not a law based doctrine, as I do believe in Grace through Faith.
I have prayed in the spirit about this and reread these scriptures. I’m encouraged by brethren who say that the fact that I’m concerned regarding eternity and seek meaning; means I’m saved. Which I accept (not in a self righteous way). It’s that these scriptures are in the Bible and Jesus spoke them; All of us who claim to believe ought to rightly divide the Word.
If you can see something to challenge what I’ve concluded I’m open to hear. Although, if this is correct, then ‘none’ of us can relax in totality of Grace through Faith without relationship through the Holy Spirit? It’s obviously very important to know; please help.
Thank you
Hi,
Thanks for the email and thoughts on salvation/security. I've written a fair amount about this on my site (not sure how much you have read) so probably won't write a lot. Well, we'll see how it goes : ) There are many topics we would likely see the same on but we have some differences here. I'll add some of your comments in blue.
I totally believe that all sin is forgiven, today, tomorrow and forever (whilst on earth)
TBH, I don't understand how someone can believe that all sin is forgiven forever - but only while we are on earth. Obviously then it is not forgiven forever. In fact it is not really forgiven at all if God only applies it to the here and now but can change His mind for eternity. Thankfully the Bible doesn't teach this. And really it would be a horrible way to try to live the Christian life as you would never know where you stand with God. This is NOT what God wants. For example, John wrote his letter so that 'you who believe in the name of the Son of God... may know that you have eternal life.' (1 John 5:13). God wants us to know. Speaking of the effect of the cross for believers, scripture says Heb 10:14 '...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.' Born again believers are already made perfect in Him and it is forever. And the basis of the New Covenant is: Heb 10:17-18 "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." (18) And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. Thankfully God never adds a fine print clause of 'Their sins I will remember no more (while they are on earth but no guarantees after that!)'
Paul does alert us in Romans 6 :1-2 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound ? 2 God forbid
Yep, agree. Romans 6 is an important chapter on sanctification as a believer. There can be consequences for sin including God's discipline. However Romans 6 doesn't indicate that forgiveness can be canceled if we sin.
Mathew 22:12-14. Here, I understand the King represents God and the man has somehow made it into heaven; but is identified as false. What he lacks is ‘The wedding garment’ representing his connection to the work of salvation, his relationship with God and his brethren in Christ.
The wedding garments in this passage speak of the righteousness of Christ that is gifted to those that believe. This was the practice of the time. The Believers Bible Commentary states: "As Ryrie notes, it was the custom in those days to provide the guests with a garment if they had none. The man obviously did not take advantage of the offered provision. Without Christ, he is speechless when challenged as to his right to enter the kingdom (Rom_3:19). His doom is outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth." So this is picturing a man who has not accepted the hosts' provided garments and instead comes in his own garments and own righteousness (of which it is a picture - and our own righteousness can never save). Hence he is rejected. It is not speaking of believers. It is a warning for the many in this world that believe their own righteousness is good enough. It is connected to the next verse you used...
Mathew 7:21-23 ... Am I correct in understanding that these who approach the Lord would be those born again believers
If we only had what the people coming to the Lord had to say we could speculate for as long as we wanted to whether these ones ever knew the Lord or not. However the final word is with the Lord Jesus and He answers this very clearly:
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Never means never. Jesus NEVER knew these people despite what they thought and said they had done for Him. Jesus doesn't say to them 'I once knew you but you sinned and fell away.' He says I never knew you. Ever. They had never been saved. It is again a case, like the man coming to the wedding in his own garments, of people coming to the Lord in their own works and so-called righteous acts, yet without ever trusting the Lord for salvation and being born again. Granted, this is a frightening thought for the people that 'think' they are Christians but really aren't. Jesus says this will be 'many'. But in contrast, to His true sheep who have been born again, He says He 'knows them' and gives this wonderful promise: Joh 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; (28) and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Revelations 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful (fear can cause people to trust in themselves not God) and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
In the past when I questioned who the scripture above is discussing? I was informed that this will be the lot of unbelievers only. Is this correct as the Bible is written to believers?
The Bible is ultimately written for humanity. It includes both promises and exhortation for believers and warnings for unbelievers. Even letters that were written to churches, and were to be read amongst the churches, were written knowing that within any fellowship there are believers, professing believers, and even unbelievers. In this Revelation passage, John was contrasting the eternal fortunes for believers with unbelievers. He gives a general list of the deeds of the flesh that characterizes unbelievers. In contrast believers are overcomers. While believers can overcome in their life as a Christian to varying degrees, and will be rewarded in due measure for doing so, ALL believers are already overcomers in terms of faith and salvation. John wrote about this in his earlier letter: 1Jn 5:4-5 ...everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. (5) Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
Conclusion: God will love you to the brink of hell.
Agree for those not saved. For those truly born again His love will never cease. Not in this life nor the next. Paul is clear that there is no power, nothing present, or in the future, that can separate the born again believer from the love of God.
Rom 8:37-39 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. (38) For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, (39) neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is because Jesus has promised that of all that Father gives Him, He will lose NONE. And that is true. That is what He will do.
Joh 6:38-40 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. (39) And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. (40) For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Now I totally agree that the believer should 'work out their salvation with fear and trembling' as Paul says. This is part of our sanctification in the Christian life. But it is not working for your salvation but working out that which God has worked in. That is, allowing the new life within to impact all areas of your life outwardly.
To conclude, a lot of the issue people have around this comes from thinking that everyone who goes to Church or has prayed a prayer to 'ask Jesus into their life' is saved. And that is not the case. There has to be a true faith. A true belief in the Lord Jesus. A true born again experience. We should make sure that we are trusting in the Lord for salvation and not ourselves. And as scripture says, 'God knows those that are His', and He will keep them to the end.
May God Bless.